Marie-Noelle Marquis (00:06):
Welcome to the AIP Summit Podcast, your go-to resource for taking control of your autoimmune health, presented by AIP Certified Coaches. Hi, I'm Marie-Noelle Marquis.
Jaime Hartman (00:16):
And I'm Jaime Hartman. And we're here to equip you with the tools, knowledge, and support you need to effectively use the Autoimmune Protocol.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (00:24):
And today we are exploring the topic of relationships, particularly romantic relationships, autoimmunity and AIP it is February and love is in the air, or is it? Jaime and I were recently discussing our challenges with autoimmune disease and relationships and we felt this was a topic that wasn't talked about enough and that might be very relevant for our listeners. So here we are.
Jaime Hartman (00:55):
Relationships can be challenging on the best days, but what happens when one person is dealing with a chronic illness on top of it? And what if they're also doing AIP? How do those things impact their partners as well as them? And how can we navigate these challenges while honoring our needs and ourselves?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (01:15):
But to better explore these points, we wanted to start by sharing our own experiences. So Jaime, in a previous episode where you shared your autoimmune journey and for our listeners that may have missed it, check out episode five to hear Jaime's full story. It's fantastic episode. So in that episode, you mentioned that you were diagnosed with Crohn's disease when you were about 19 and that you were sort of in denial about it for quite some time. So I'm curious, when you met your husband, how did you navigate sharing that diagnosis? So was that something that you brought up right away?
Jaime Hartman (01:51):
I did bring it up early on. We met when I was 30 and I'd had an active social life through my twenties and everyone I dated, I did share my diagnosis with them early on, but I always reassured them that it was no big deal. I just take some medication and otherwise this really doesn't impact me. And I wouldn't say that I was lying to my dates exactly because that's really what I believed or I wanted to believe or what I at least convinced myself to believe. What about you Marie-Noelle? Is that something you shared right away?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (02:24):
Well, I guess the short answer is no. I actually went through a pretty significant trauma in my early twenties. So when I met my current partner, I was about a year out of a relationship where my mental and my physical health had really been a burden on that relationship to the point that it led to my fiance at the time breaking up our engagement. So soon after that broke off, that's when I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's thyroiditis and lupus the time. And let me tell you that going back on a first date after years of being in a relationship that I felt failed because of me, the last thing I wanted to do is tell this new guy that, Hey, I have an autoimmune disease and by the way, I'm also following the strictest elimination diet ever known to humankind. So I think I really needed to feel normal and not complicated.
Jaime Hartman (03:23):
I totally get that. So how did you handle it
Marie-Noelle Marquis (03:26):
With a lot of denial, honestly. I mean, I had been feeling a lot and mentioned that before, been feeling a lot better following AIP. My thought was, oh, I can just cheat and they'll be fine. So I started reintroducing foods, but not in a specific quarter or not according to the tried and true reintroduction protocol on night one, I had gluten, dairy and wine, just to give you the example. But I think the point here is that I didn't want to be a burden for anyone. I wanted to be normal, I wanted to be fun. I didn't want to be told that it was too much to deal with. And I think that those are really common feelings that we struggle with when it comes to navigating AIP and social settings or autoimmunity altogether or diagnosis. So we all want to be that image of fun, free, easygoing to a point, and the question becomes, well, how do you find that fun free easygoing feeling while still honoring where you're at and honoring those challenges you're going through?
Jaime Hartman (04:30):
That's really true. I think there's a component of pressure or expectations that we put on ourselves about how a relationship should go, and that can be hard to come to terms with the fact that it might not look like that and it can be particularly hard when you feel like you are the obstacle to that ideal relationship.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (04:51):
Exactly. There's a book called Solving the Autoimmune Puzzle from Dr. Keesha Ewers that has been really relevant for me and something that she talks about is how common it is for women with autoimmune disease to also have experienced trauma in their lives. And the reason I'm bringing this up is that there is a very real catch 22 here when it comes to trauma and autoimmunity and having to set boundaries because navigating trauma is a whole journey in itself, which requires the right professional support along the way. And telling a trauma survivor to set boundaries and honor themselves is a lot more complicated than just saying, Hey, set boundaries and honor yourself. And I think that when you add the component of relationships, it really heightens that pressure to either people please or feel normal or fit in because that very feeling of fitting in and belonging means that we are safe. There's many aspect that comes into play when dealing with dating and chronic illness or something that can on top of it really feel that it makes us different on AIP. And I think for me that part is why stepping into a new dating experience my go-to was fit in at all costs.
Jaime Hartman (06:07):
And I don't want to overstate the gender elements of it, but I think as women, there is culturally this aspect of not wanting to be difficult or high maintenance that adds to this pressure that some of us put on ourselves.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (06:21):
That is so true too. So what are effective ways that you can help manage that first date, right? So what about this way to think about it? What if you change the focus away from what makes you the most self-conscious about your autoimmune journey? For example, if being on AIP feels like it's too much to discuss or deal with on a first date, instead of doing what I did and throwing AIP out the window, maybe it's about scheduling a date that is based on an activity instead of a meal, right? Something that is manageable for you where you're at with your symptoms.
Jaime Hartman (06:57):
Yeah, exactly. There actually are a lot of things that you can do that don't require you to talk about how you eat. Maybe you go on a hike or maybe a hike isn't conducive to where your energy levels are. So maybe it's a movie or in the park, maybe meeting at a coffee and tea place, going for a leisurely walk, walking a dog. Dogs are a great way to let you know if that first date might be worth a second one too. I got to tell you, there was a date that, a second date I went on with a young man in my twenties solely because I wanted to meet his puppy. Probably wouldn't have made that second date if hadn't been for the puppy, but I'm glad I did it.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (07:38):
I like that. Another idea could be to pick a restaurant that you're familiar with and that has good options for you. So that could just be presented like, Hey, there's a restaurant I love to go. How about we meet there? And that way you're looking out for yourself and you're staying safe.
Jaime Hartman (07:53):
Yeah, great point. Get ahead of it rather than wait for the person you're going to go on the date with to suggest a restaurant, you suggest it right away and then you'll be okay. Obviously there are ways around having to have that I'm on AIP talk right away if it just feels like too much and finding what that new normal, that new safety is for yourself is a really important step. Plus, if that first date doesn't work out, is it really worth having thrown away all the work that you've done if you decided to just deviate from AIP for that date?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (08:28):
Absolutely not. And if it's meant to turn into a longer relationships than AIP or any healing habits that you've created for yourself will obviously have to be part of the long-term version of your life together. So basically you can't ever go wrong with honoring yourself where you're at, no matter how difficult it can be.
Jaime Hartman (08:48):
I think it goes back to something that we often mention about being successful on AIP and that's being prepared. It's giving the situation that extra pause to just go, what do I need in this situation to care for myself?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (09:03):
I was not prepared on my first date and I didn't even know that I could. Being prepared was something I could do because all I knew at that point in my life about IP was that it was a diet and I wasn't in pain anymore. And I think that's why I fell right back into the people pleasing habits, not having those tools or that community to even know where to begin to get the support.
Jaime Hartman (09:23):
That community is truly powerful because it can really feel like we're the only one this is happening to sometimes.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (09:32):
Right, that's very true. Another part of relationships and chronic illness is that sometimes you get diagnosed while you're already involved with a partner. So we talked about grief and autoimmunity and grieving the life we might have thought we could have or coming to terms with this new reality, and that is a lot to manage on a personal level, but adding the component of relationships can make this even harder. Jaime, I'd love for you to share with our listeners your experience with that. You mentioned in episode five that shortly after you got married, your health took a turn. How did that impact you emotionally and how did that impact your partner and your relationship?
Jaime Hartman (10:15):
Well, the impact was momentous. It was huge. Remember that until that point, I really had him convinced that my health issues were no big deal and that illusion evaporated really quickly when I was in the ICU for sepsis after surgical complications, and then over the next two years I had six more surgeries and then had to really come to terms with the reality that some elements of the life that we'd envisioned having together were just not going to turn out the way that we had hoped was really hard. I didn't want to lose him, but at the same time, I didn't want to take from him the life that I thought he deserved to have. I told him that he should leave me at various points and go look for someone else who could give him that and that if he did, I wouldn't hold it against him.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (11:09):
That's so tough for you to deal with that responsibility I think. I guess it's important now to remind yourself it's like, this isn't our fault. This is happening, but innately we're like, I don't want to do this to you. I don't want to put you in this place. And there's a fear base of that, but of course there's a big component that's love and also accepting that the person might not want to walk away. How did you process that?
Jaime Hartman (11:38):
Processing his refusal to leave, even though I was pushing him away? Honestly, I don't know. I still don't know that I fully processed it. Even now after we've been together for more than 18 years, any relationship, ours has been tested in many different ways and we keep navigating the challenges and relationships are complex even in the easiest of times and even the best relationships between good people with good intentions can fall apart
Marie-Noelle Marquis (12:06):
And that's life, right? But again, I think it's important to remember through all that hardship did not take on that responsibility. I definitely, in my previous relationship, it's like I knew why my fiance left. I understood our situation was way too much for him to be able to be happy, but then having to learn to, and I was as heartbroken as I was, I was also like, okay, well I want you to be happy. But I think really learning to stop blaming myself for it after the fact because after he was gone, it was still like, oh, it's me. I'm not, I'm never going to be good enough for somebody or I'm broken. And then learning to stop blaming yourself and moving past that so you don't bring that fear and you can fully be yourself in your new relationship.
Jaime Hartman (13:06):
So I'm curious because I know that obviously you did go back to AIP and work through the protocol. At what point did you do that in your relationship and how was that?
Marie-Noelle Marquis (13:18):
I don't remember the particular moment, but I do remember I got sick. So it basically culminated with me realizing I had to take control of my health and define those clear boundaries and make that space for myself. Luckily, it's worth mentioning, we lived in an area north of San Francisco that's sort of like the mecca of healthy eating. So my boyfriend spent most of his life there. So eating healthy wasn't a foreign concept. So introducing AIP was a little easier in that way and I realized that the leap might be a lot more challenging depending where someone lives, right?
(13:56):
However, I think one thing that's important to remind ourself is that you loved ones. They don't want to see you in pain. So I was worried like, okay, let me share all these restrictions and what's going to happen. I had a sense of worry about that, but I was never made to feel annoying or I was a burden or because of the dietary restrictions, and that in itself was a tremendous healing moment and help for me. But all those fears were things that I was putting onto myself when it came down to it, I actually had a lot of support and I found that it was more curiosity in my partner and even friends around like, oh, can you eat that? And wanting to participate and help and support me. So I think it really came down to me choosing to communicate what I needed.
Jaime Hartman (14:55):
And of course, this goes for more than just romantic relationships, communicating with others what our needs are can feel like it's too much before we do it. And then you realize actually the people around you want to help, they do want to support you.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (15:14):
Dr. Eva Ash, who's a clinical psychologist and an AIP Certified Coach presented a session at one of our annual summits called Improving Relationships for AIP Success, in which she talks about five things that you can do like this week to improve relationships. And one of those is exactly what you just mentioned, Jaime, which is improving your communication skills and asking for that support. She uses the example of a seemingly unsupportive partner for someone in AIP who always brings home pizza, but when it comes down to it, they're really just trying to do something nice for that person, right? So let's listen to that clip.
Dr. Eva Ash (15:53):
You can't change other people and you can't change the past. So lemme give you an example. What if you've been trying to eat AIP go to bed early enough to get a good eight hours of sleep and incorporate gentle exercise, but your spouse keeps bringing home pizza and saying things about fad diets or he likes you a little plump, we can't expect to change his behavior this week, or his mindset change is hard. I say this to my therapy clients all the time, think about how hard it is to change your behavior and you are coming to therapy every week. There's no way your spouse is going to just magically change. We also can't change the past. Maybe we had a really difficult childhood or we gained 50 pounds during the pandemic, or we've been diagnosed with multiple illnesses. We can't change any of that. It happened, but we can figure out what we want to do to move forward.
(16:56):
First thing you can work on this week is improving your communication skills. I like to start with teaching people about I statements. Big difference between saying something to someone like, I wish that we had more time together just to watch a movie versus You never make time for me. That second one is a use statement and it's automatically going to put the other person on the defense. So using I statements and really focusing on what I want, what I'm thinking, what I feel can really go a long way to improving your communication. And I'm going to give you a longer example in a second. Another thing that's important is to ask someone if it's a good time to talk about something serious.
(17:50):
If you feel like every time you try to talk to your partner about something important, he or she brushes you off, maybe you want to think about whether it's really a good time for that person to listen to you or to focus on something important, right? Like the minute someone comes through the door is not usually a good time, or maybe they had a really tough day at work and they're not really going to be able to focus on whatever your concerns are. So asking someone if it's a good time to talk about something important can go a long way to improving the way that talk actually goes.
(18:29):
It's also important to let people know what you need. I have something I need to tell you and I just need you to listen. I don't need you to fix this. That is a big relief to a lot of our partners when they hear us say that sometimes we really just want to vent and we don't want their three or four suggestions, even if they're great suggestions, we don't want their suggestions, we just want them to listen to us. We just want a hug. So the more we can tell someone what we need, the more likely we are to actually get what we want and need. And then when you're finishing up a conversation, sometimes it's really helpful to ask if the person has any questions or if they need clarification on anything. If they just nodded the whole time, but you're not quite sure they got it, giving them permission to ask some questions might go a long way to you really getting your point across and having the communication be more successful.
(19:31):
So lemme give you a more detailed example. So let's go back to that non-supportive spouse who was bringing the pizza home. I bet your instinct would be to say something to that person like, ah, why do you keep bringing home gluten, tomato and cheese when you know I'm trying to avoid those things? You always sabotage my attempts to improve myself, but then your spouse is most likely to defend himself and say, I'm just trying to help you avoid a night of cooking. A thank you would be nice. He defended himself because you used you statements and accused him of always sabotaging. You said, why do you keep bringing home gluten? I'm trying to avoid these things. You always sabotage my attempts. Those are all you statements and it's human nature to defend ourselves When we feel attacked, what would it look like and sound like?
(20:34):
If you could use I statements instead. So what if you said to your spouse, I'm working so hard to avoid gluten, nightshades and cheese. It isn't easy, but I'm proud of the progress I've made. It would help me out so much if you could bring home a salad with no dressing on it for me. When you and the kids want pizza. So here you've used I statements, you've asked for what you needed, you've avoided those always, never statements like you never support me. And you might even finish up by asking if he understood, asking if he had any questions, and did he think that he could do this in the future? The next time he brings home pizza, could he bring you a salad? Chances are he's going to say, yeah, I could do that. He just didn't think of it.
Jaime Hartman (21:31):
I love that example. That was a really great presentation by Dr. Ash. She also talks about improving your self-soothing skills, identifying your own needs or asking for help and apologizing, thinking and doing the opposite of what you might usually do, which is a really interesting one. So let's listen to how she breaks that down.
Dr. Eva Ash (21:56):
Apologize, thank and do the opposite of what you usually do. These help our relationships by generating goodwill. When you make a mistake or hurt someone's feelings or talk rudely, apologize, even if you don't remember to do it right away. Sometimes it takes some time to realize, oh, I was really in the wrong there. You can do it an hour later or the next day when someone does something helpful, thank them again. If you don't remember to do it right away, you can do it in an hour the next day. Apologizing and thanking really goes a long way to having people say, wow, she really cares about me. She cares about my feelings and not just her half of it. And then surprise the people around you by doing the opposite of what you usually do. Let me give you an example from my own life.
(22:55):
I am always asking my young adult son to do something he probably dreads when I enter a room because chances are I'm going to ask him to unload the dishwasher or take out the garbage or mow the lawn. Every once in a while. I remember to do the opposite. I enter the room, I say hello. I don't ask for anything. I might even ask him what he's planning to do today. And then I compliment his choice. Does this get the lawn mode? No, but it definitely helps our relationship and sometimes that's worth it. Maybe I'll wait a few days and then I'll ask for the one to be mow.
Marie-Noelle Marquis (23:48):
I definitely need to apply that to my life full. This culture, and again, it all goes back to developing tools, right? Giving yourself that permission to take that space that you need to be the healthiest version of you. Last month we talked about that instant gratification mentality with New Year's resolutions and wanting to achieve that image right away, which often leads to people dropping those resolutions faster than they may. So taking that time to slow down and reflect, yes, there is the reality of our diagnosis, yes, it means our lives will possibly look slightly or maybe largely different than what we had hoped it would be. And yes, when it comes down to chasing that feeling of normalcy, we often feel like there is a conflict between what we want and what we can do. And when it comes to bringing another person into our reality, that does present additional challenges.
(24:38):
But as Dr. Ash mentions, you are not responsible for the other person's behavior or for their acceptance or non-acceptance of what this adapted life might look like. It's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. To end up with an autoimmune disease and ignoring it or ignoring what your new needs are is only going to delay the inevitable, which is just the need to address your needs so that you can thrive and live a healthy life despite the diagnosis or beyond the diagnosis. Because it's important to mention, I mean, I think diagnosis or symptoms I should say, because a lot of people will experience autoimmune symptoms without having an actual diagnosis, and the symptoms are just as aggressive. So taking that time to sit with our new reality and defining what health and safety looks like for you will make it easier and either to either go into that first date or not compromise your needs or to communicate what your new needs are with your existing so that they can understand and better support you. Again, I think both of us are guilty of this a little bit, but denial is definitely the least productive thing that we can do.
Jaime Hartman (25:46):
Yeah, that's for sure. So to wrap this up, I'd love to share one more clip from Dr. Ash's presentation, and it's on the topic of self-soothing. She offers a simple exercise to ground ourselves and be present. Here she is.
Dr. Eva Ash (26:08):
Grounding techniques are also examples of ways to self-soothe and grounding helps us to focus on the present moment rather than worries about the future or regrets of the past. I want to go into some detail on the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 technique. It's a very well-known grounding technique. And again, you can Google this and then find a lot of information about it. But basically what this means is you want to look around your environment and find five things you can see. So I can see my computer screen, I can see a window that's behind my computer. I can see my bookcases, I can see my mouse, I can see my keyboard. And four things that you feel. I can feel the chair supporting my back. I can feel the footrest on this stool sort of pushing up into my bare feet. And I'm wishing I had shoes on at this moment because the sort of irritating the bottom of my feet.
(27:17):
Three things you can hear. I can actually hear a bird out of my window. I'm not sure if that's coming all the way through my audio, but I can hear a bird outside. I can also hear some dripping water because there was a rainstorm about a half hour ago, and I can still hear some of the rain dripping off the roof. Two things you can smell. Now, this is really hard to do in your own house because we all become nose blind to the smells in our own house. This is much easier when I do this with clients who are sitting in my office because I'm used to the smells of my office. But if you're only coming into my office for 45 minutes a week, it's a new environment and the smells are strange. And on my hallway in my building, there's a dentist, and I don't know if you've noticed this before, but dentist offices have a particular smell.
(28:05):
And so our whole building smells a little bit like a dentist's office. So sometimes you really have to work to figure out what are two things you can smell right now, especially if you're in your own environment and you've gone nose blind. And finally, one thing you can taste. And even if you're not eating or drinking anything right now, you might still be able to taste something in the back of your tongue from something you ate an hour ago. But if you go through this 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, anytime you're feeling a little anxious, if you're at the grocery store and you're feeling overwhelmed by all the people, you could stop and just look around. Five things I see four things I feel, three things I hear two things I smell. One thing I taste. The grocery store would actually be a really easy place to do this because there's so much stimulation. And by focusing on those five things in your environment, you really put yourself in the present moment, which is very soothing if your mind has been jumping all over or if you've become stuck on something from the past
Marie-Noelle Marquis (29:12):
At That's a great way to wrap up the episode. Jaime, thank you. And thank you everyone for exploring the topic of relationship and autoimmunity with us today. Remember, the AIP community has a wealth of tools and resources that you can use to help you on your journey. And that AIP goes beyond just the diet. It's a protocol with multiple branches, and there are multiple ways to approach it. And Jimmy and I are here to help guide you through this process. This podcast is intended to bring you the resources so that while you can do AIP on your own, you don't have to do it alone.
Jaime Hartman (29:42):
We'll be back with another episode in two weeks. So make sure you subscribe to the AIP Summit Podcast in your favorite podcast player if you haven't already,
Marie-Noelle Marquis (29:51):
And if you'd like to leave us a rating and review, it will help others find this podcast where we are committed to helping you use the power of the autoimmune protocol to elevate your wellness journey to new heights.
Jaime Hartman (30:07):
The AIP Summit podcast is a Gutsy By Nature production. Content presented is for informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.
